Fundamentalist Christian Words of Wisdom #3
This is long overdue, but I was under the impression that the mouthbreathers over at the American Family Association’s “news” division, OneNewsNow, had discontinued ALL comments on their site. I have discovered, though, with glee, that they still have comments sections in their BLOGS, which disproportionately seem to be about Teh Gays. Having found this wonderment anew, I shall excerpt comments from Teh Stupid among us, who go by the name “Christian.”
Note: If at any point you click on a link to that website and are redirected to a Mike Seaver/DJ Tanner (who are now “Christians”)-style “Good Person Test,” which asks you all kinds of stupid questions about if you’re a good person, only to tell you that no matter what, you deserve to burn in hell, let me know in the comments section. In that case, you can always copy/paste the link. (And the interwebs actually has, um, ways to get around it.) The people who run OneNewsNow are apparently, emotionally and mentally, not to mention spirtually, in the third grade or so. They have pulled this little redirect with Right Wing Watch and Good As You, and probably others that I don’t know about. Unlike liberal news sources/blogs, which tend to encourage the free expression of ideas, people with beliefs as weak and facts as truthy as OneNewsNow feel extremely threatened by people with rebuttal arguments based on facts and research (you know, liberal stuff).
Onward into stupidland! All spelling and syntax errors will be left intact, because, you know, that’s what makes Fundamentalists special:
1. The first blog entry is complaining that eight years ago, before he was doing the political thing, Al Franken (who used to be a comedian – remember that part, kiddos) gave an interview in which he joked about how internet porn is so awesome that his 6th grader was able to write a report about bestiality because of it! Guess who has no sense of humor? Fundamentalists. Guess who hasn’t found a new identity through which to live vicariously since the end of the Cold War? Fundamentalists:
Al Franken is a communist. Their goal is to destroy the moral fabric of this country to make it easier for them to take over. Read the Naked Communist and see what their 45 goals for this country were when this book was written. Most of thses either have been accomplished or are in the midst of being accomplished. They are immoral reprobates and need to be eliminated from our society, just like the virus they are.Vte every democrat and 3/4 of the republicans out of office because they are socialst/marxist filth
it loks like the people in each state that has these ungodly lust ediots are going to have to be literily thrown out of their offices by the people.the people should get together with about five hundred thousand and throw the bums out,and put someone in their place until new elections can be had.i,m sure glad that my parents were not like these jerks.
God said; “out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaketh”…this is truly an evil man and so it this cancer in our society. Shame on all of you who would think this is proper and okay. It doesn’t take guts to talk like a pig, you just have to be one….
I have yet to meet one of these “ungodly lust ediots.” Where do THEY hang out? It’s stunning to me that most of the commenters couldn’t grasp that it was satire, from a humorist. No it’s not. We are dealing with Fundamentalists!
2. I’m going to have to excerpt part of this next blog entry, written by a lady named Ashley Gardner, about how gay marriage ruins the dreams she had when she was a little girl. Apparently, if people she doesn’t know can get married, it makes her feel ostracized. Yes. POOR Ashley:
Oregon’s marriage protection amendment is being upheld by its state’s appeal courts, and I am so thankful to see that I’m not alone in this world. I’ve never felt more ostracized from this society. I just don’t want my future children to feel ostracized like this. I know I will raise them in a Christian family, with Christian beliefs, but what about when they step out the front door?
Ashley? Reality is sending you a text message. It says “ok lol srsly grow up u can stl gt married 2 a dude.” Comments:
If the ungodly are right and I am wrong I lose nothing in the end but I have avoided a lot of heartache and social diseases. However, if I am right about living a godly life and oppose gay marriage and that lifestyle or suffer God’s judgment, they lose everything…and will suffer for an eternity! Who’s the wiser here?????? In all humility, I know ’tis me. Glen
It is a heart wrenching thing to realize that precious little granddaughter that you so adore has turned to a lesbian lifestyle, no great grandchildren from her. Oh how sad to see the FAMILY being destroyed…all because of lifestyle choices.
Pause to laugh so hard I pee a little…Okay.
Sodomists only hear what they want to hear, see what they want to see, and live only for the moment. They could not care less about destroying their lives and destroying society. It’s all about LUST, not Love.
It is supposed to be Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve. Prayerfully the judiciary system of the USA will nurture and protect the Institute of Marriage.
OMG, get a new slogan, you morons! I do agree, though, that the “judiciary” system will have a lot of effect on the future of marriage for “sodomists.” In related news, the first commenter is right that I only live for the moment, because of my lust. That’s why i haven’t done any serious dating for several years, having learned what I really want out of marriage (to a dude). It’s the lust, it’s all about the lust…
3. Predictably, the Adult Daycare wing of the Christian church is pissed off at New York Governor David Paterson for bringing their various state agencies into line with New York state law, as it has existed for years, in recognizing marriages performed in other states/countries. These days, that finally is including same-sex marriage, and he merely is applying current New York state law consistently. Predictably, again, the Morons are upset, because they don’t understand things like “civics”:
Impeach!
Let him go!
IMPEACH HIM!
FOR GODS SAKE IMPEACH HIM IN THE NAME OF OUR SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST.
Legalized abortion began in California and New York, too. How about the two of them secede and destroy themselves without bringing the rest of the country down with them?
Answer: Because Alabama’s roads and Oklahoma’s ugly suburbs would fester and die without surplus tax money from states like California and New York, okthxbye…continued:
Quote: “How has this decision restricted opposite sex marriage? It doesn’t affect it in any way…” Deeply flawed logic. You are supposing that we should view this problem only if we can find a direct effect on ourselves. That’s terribly flawed. So if you abuse your children and I have a heroin factory in my basement and we both know what each other is doing, we should just ignore each other and keep our mouths shut as long as we don’t directly impact each other?
Deeply flawed logic, el retard: If you’re making heroin in your basement, I would assume you’re selling it and getting people addicted in the process. If you’re abusing your children, then children are being hurt. On the other hand, if my husband and I live next door and keep our property looking better than yours (naturally), increase the property values of the surrounding houses, and live our lives in peace, it has no negative effect on you OR anyone else, despite your specious claims to the contrary. We’ll let the black man from New York (probably the pastor of the Atlah church) have the last word in this section:
I’m a black man in NY and that guy is not speaking for me nor do my wife and I follow or respect his directives. He should leave office. His political career is over. The bible clearly states marriage is suppose to be between man and women. Any thing else is uncivilized. Throw the trash out, cause that what it is …DIRTY SMELLY TRASH. IMPEACH..IMPEACH…IMPEACH.
I really don’t care what you think the bible says things are “suppose” to be. Oh, though I do long for the “civilized” Old Testament days when people were punished for eating shrimp and men could have nine or ten wives, not counting a little good old fashioned slave-fucking on the side. Oh yes, may we go back to “Bah-ble times.” Idiot.
4. Fundamentalists are pissed off about California’s wonderful momentous decision to interpret equal protection based on the knowledge we have in 2008, rather than the bigotry of the first Puritan pilgrims. Praise Jesus for that. Occasionally, while reading one of these stupid websites, you can find out something interesting. Obviously, some polling companies have better track records than others, and I was interested that, in the wake of the California Supreme Court ruling, an LA Times poll showed 54% of Californians planning to vote for a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage in November, while a Field poll found that, depending on the wording of the question, either 51% or 54% were in fact, OPPOSED to enshrining discrimination into their Constitution. Turns out, according to Fivethirtyeight.com (a very reliable non-partisan site which tracks polling outfits), LA Times polls fare very poorly, while Field polls are known for their accuracy. So that’s good news! No interesting comments on that post.
5. One more, because I have a threshhold for stupid, and I need to go to sleep, but it’s become highly amusing to watch Fundamentalists’ reactions to John McCain. They are sooooo pissed at him this week for going on the Ellen show (where she totally pwned him on the issue of marriage equality, by the way), and also for giving back the endorsements of John Hagee and Rod Parsley. Hagee, remember, is the teevee pastor who calls the Catholic Church the “Great Whore” of Revelation, blames Hurricane Katrina on gays, and finally offended John McCain when he said that God had sent the Nazis to “hunt the Jews.” (McCain’s ass-buddy Joe Lieberman, the new and redesigned archetype of the self-hating Jew, still plans to speak at John Hagee’s upcoming conference.) Rod Parsley believes that part of God’s plan for forming America (silly, you thought it was Ben Franklin & Thomas Jefferson) was that America would one day eradicate Islam. Here comes the obviously sage mind Jacob Dawson with his thoughts on John McCain’s repudiation of these retards:
After being on the pro-homosexual “Ellen Degeneres Show” yesterday, McCain didn’t stop at promoting his Anti-Christian campaign. McCain went on to reject Pro-Israel pastor John Hagee, for comments made considering “end times prophesy”. And now McCain has rejected the only other serious endorsement from Christians, Pastor Rod Parsley.
Apparently Parsley dared to call Islam an anti-Christ religion, and he also said that Islam is a religion of violence. How could he be so insensitive? I mean Islam didn’t destroy the USS Cole, wait… yeah it did. But it wasn’t Islam that bombed the World Trade Center in the early 90’s, wait… yeah it was. It wasn’t Islam that destroyed London in 2005 though, wait… uh yeah it was. But of course 9-11… YEP ISLAM. Islam is a religion of hate, and to reject an endorsement because of this is… stupid.
Haha, now I understand what McCain is doing. He’s making a futile attempt to address the 80% of Americans who don’t think like Fundamentalists. I really don’t believe McCain is one of them anyway, since during the 2000 election, he called Fundamentalist Christian leaders “agents of intolerance.” That being said, McCain is a horrible candidate for the presidency for many reasons based on facts, rather than Fundamentalist bloviating about non-issues. But to correct the idiot, Islam did not destroy the USS Cole. Islam did not bomb the World Trade Center. Islam did not “destroy London.” (Double-Stuf Idiot! London was not destroyed! Fuck!) Islam did not commit the 9/11 attacks. Anyone who believes that is a fucking moron, who, were he to live in a nation where voting rights were based on a basic grasp of facts and issues, would have his right to vote revoked permanently. Let’s see if the commenters can out-stupid him:
Looks like we are lsft with no choice. bur wait maybe he is playing the same game as the Dems. Tell them what they want to here and get the vote.
At this point, all Americans that still have some morality left, has to create their own Political Party !!!!
Everybody gets his own political party! I’m going to call mine “Carl.”
Sometimes a brain-having person makes a comment:
The only way in which I disagree with the article is that it wasn’t “Islam” that bombed the World Trade Center; it was radical Islamists.
But they’re always quickly followed by more idiots:
Hopeefully Christians will stop looking to a man and start looking to God. Both the Republicans and the Democrats are working hard toward a one world government, check Revelations for more about a one world government. NAFTA, Amnesty for Illegals, SPP are all about erasing our borders, our Constitution and our sovereignty as a nation. McCain, Obama and Clinton are all in agreement with these issues as they are with the homosexual agenda, abortion and every other antichristian agenda. Those of us who are Christians really need to pray HARD to our Father in Heaven. This good ole USA is near it’s end. We need to get out and vote on the issues, I will not vote for any of the major candidates. A vote for the lesser of two evils is still a vote for evil.
Parsley has made broad characterization and he is generally correct. We in the West are often insensitive to other cultures and their beliefs. Where Islam is practiced close to it’s origins the far majority of it’s population embraces the beheadings, the bombers, the Anti-Semitism, the violent Anti-Americanism. If it was the actions of a few it would be vehemently condemned by the Islamic clergy but it was not. When you have Saudi Arabia, Iran Kuwait Syria, etc in the midst, it shows Parsley’s remarks are accurate.
Maybe Jesus isn’t running for president, however I as a conservative Christian can’t leave my beliefs behind when I enter the voting booth. I don’t care about the endorsement of televangelists, I care about what the Bible says, it is my only guideline when voting.
Only guideline? That shouldn’t be allowed either. One should have at least a layman’s understanding of the issues facing this country. Call me “elitist.” (First dumbfuck Fundamentalist who calls me an elitist in a comment wins an autographed hymnbook from my collection!) The middle comment is great, too…it starts out all “We in the West don’t understand other cultures…” and then veers into fucknuts land with “yeeeeeeay-us, Pastor Parsley is raht! ALL Moose-lems hate fuhhhhh-reeedom!”
Idiot obviously has no idea there are like…a billion…Muslims…in the world…
Mcdengeris Mccain should get any old english/arabic translation of the Koran and go straight to the index on killing infidels.Over 700 times the Koran tells of killing non-believers of the prophet Mohammed.McCain can not win if the born-again Christians support a third independent candidate.With 52% of democrats refusing to vote for the winner of obama/hillary then there are enough blue-dog democrats,ReaganDemocrats,pro-life,pro-second amendment Democrats,pro-prayer in public school,pro-one man one woman marriage Democrats to send a new political choice to D.C.Pelosi’s 13 % approval rating of Congress,save the bear kill the baby seals environmental idiots, and the anti-drilling for oil group socialists like Maxine WAters to the back and reinstitute WE The People back in control. .
McWHOM?!?! I’m not sure about these “save the bear kill the baby seals” environmentalists. Can I buy a tee-shirt? And what does drilling for oil have to do with Conservative Christian values? Oh, I forgot, Fundamentalists’ Bibles have extra pages in the back where they staple Republican party talking points, because they’re “useful idiots.”
Goodnight, my darlings.
.
June 2, 2008 at 1:36 pm
god they’re dangerously stupid.
you know, last june when i was onboard the uss cole, i had NO IDEA that it no longer existed (i probably would’ve been a lot more reverent had i known).
well, MAYBE jesus isn’t running for president…
June 2, 2008 at 4:24 pm
Evan,
First of all, you elitist pig…and what?
So, I happen to like Kirk Cameron and do really believe him to be Christian. You should stop putting Christian in quotations in reference to every Christian you personally disagree with (or the Bible personally disagrees with lol). It’s very derrogatory. We don’t even do it over at CRN.info, because it implies you have secret knowledge of who is in a saving relationship with Jesus or not. AND MAYBE if you paid attention to those tests…
Anyways, where’s radical islam getting it’s ideas from anyways?
This was a funny post dude.
Joe
June 2, 2008 at 5:02 pm
perhaps it’s a difference in syntax/perspective…
since I don’t see Christianity from a perspective of “saving” faith or non, because I don’t see it from the perspective of either “salvation” or “condemnation,” when I put “Christian” in quotes, usually it’s because i’m thinking “Now, does this person say Christ to me, do they seem Christ-ian?
and people who put stupid tests like that on their websites, which are basically attempts to scare people into religious obedience, don’t say “Christ” to me.
so Mike Seaver stands.
June 2, 2008 at 10:29 pm
Before you diss Islam, know your Christianity first… And quit generalizing, too.
While chatting with a friend the other day, we found ourselves on the topic of religion. This particular friend is getting a tattoo of the word in Islam for “infidel” in a few weeks. When I asked him why he would do this (he’s Christian), he told me that he was doing it as a mockery of the faith. He spoke of Islam as a violent religion, out to massacre and kill, pillage and rape. He cited this passage from the Quran: “Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate” (Quran 9:73) “Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil: so fight ye against the friends of Satan” (Quran 4:76), and of course, he referenced suicide bombings.
This logic no longer surprises me, but it does continue to agitate me. The direct correlation between Islam and September 11, the assertions that all Muslims are America-haters and Christian-killers, that the religion teaches them to either convert non-believers or exterminate them… all of this I’ve heard time and time again, and all of it I roll my eyes at. The overt hypocrisy, the vast generalizations, and the sheer idiocy of these remarks are so easy to see, yet even easier to overlook.
The Christian Bible’s Old Testament repeatedly calls on those of faith to either convert or kill non-believers. For example, Deuteronomy 17 states, “17:2 If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant; 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel; 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.”
Why can we point out passages in the Quran that call for extermination of infidels while we continue to ignore the very passages in the CHRISTIAN BIBLE that promote the exact same actions? What makes our “peaceful” Christian religion justified in its writings urging murder yet labels Islam a violent faith?
After reaching this point in the argument, I am usually reminded of the events of September 11; I’m told that terrorists bombed the World Trade Center in the name of their faith, and thus, any faith that promotes such a thing must surely be a hostile one. I’d like to direct anyone who chooses to utilize this argument back to the actions of our peaceful Christian brothers and sisters. Think of the Christians who have blown up abortion clinics or attacked doctors and nurses who work there in the name of Christianity. Is this not a similar concept? European countries in the 16 and 1700s colonized and enslaved the people of Africa and Asia in the name of Christianity, in the name of saving the savage people from their filthy sin filled lives. Their land and resources were exploited and their human dignity ravaged all disguised under a veil of Christianity’s greater good, of a mission to bring the Christian faith to those who were too stupid and too uncivilized to know it.
But no, it is the Muslims who are violent.
The men who bombed the World Trade Center were not Muslims at all. The faith strictly forbids alcohol consumption, loose sexual values, and gambling, yet the terrorists of 911 drank heavily, utilized the service of prostitutes, and visited casinos all the night before their act of terrorism was to be executed. Wouldn’t it seem that men who are thought to be killing American lives all in the name of Islam would be interested in rigidly following the basic rules of their faith?
“Oh yes, well the Quran states that those who die for their faith will be rewarded greatly in heaven.” I would like to guide you toward Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount for a response to this argument. “Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake/ Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. (Matthew 5:11-12). We honor martyrs and pray to saints, many of whom have died in the name of their Christian faith. We immortalize those who have died for the sake of Christianity… Sound familiar?
Of course, at this point I must add a disclaimer, although I know that there will still be someone who chooses to point this out: I am in no way saying that Islam is never used by evil people as a shield for evil deeds. However, we have to remember to separate the religion from the people. By this I mean, while the faith itself may say one this, someone else may interpret it to mean something else, something violent and hostile, and may act on it. This does not mean that that is what all Muslims believe!
Again, to Christianity… Some Christians believe that only through baptism can one be saved. Even if one has never heard of Jesus Christ, because that person has not been baptized and does not accept Christ as his or her savior (again, not by choice but because the belief in Christ has never been made known to that person), that person will go to hell. Not all Christians believe this. Not all Christians believe that homosexuality is a sin; not all Christians believe that the death penalty is bad; not all Christians believe evolution is real; not all Christians choose to wait to have sex until after marriage. This means that Christianity, like Islam, is not a uniform belief. Some people believe and do one thing while some people believe and do another. It is not just to generalize a whole people, an ENTIRE FAITH on the actions of the few or with regards to the events that we see on the news. It’s not fair, and it’s not right.
I really am becoming more and more disgusted with the hatred and bigotry toward Islam. Yes, there are bad Muslims out there, and Christians and Jews, and Hindus and atheists. We have to stop judging and entire faith on our shallow predispositions and skin-deep generalizations. We have to let go of our contempt and judgmental attitudes and stop being so childish and inane.
More senseless idealism and bleeding-heart liberalism from an untainted nineteen year old youth.
“We must learn to live together as brothers or perish together as fools.”
MLK Jr.
Perhaps it’s not too late…
Tags: Christianity, Christians, Islam, Muslims, Religion
This entry was posted on January 1, 2008 at 11:35 pm and is filed under Christian, Christianity, Islam, Muslims, Religion. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
4 Responses to “Before you diss Islam, know your Christianity first… And quit generalizing, too.”
1. ahh Says:
January 2, 2008 at 12:07 am
prokopios is the solution
2. amberfireinus Says:
January 2, 2008 at 12:10 am
I absolutely loved your blog. Finally someone who tells it like it is!!! I love it! I am planning to send this link to people who I feel need to see it in their lives. I have tried to articulate these same thoughts in my own blog.
Very eloquently put. Bravo!!
3. Before you diss Islam, know your Christianity first… And quit generalizing, too. « Opinions are like… « Amberfireinus’s Weblog Says:
January 2, 2008 at 12:14 am
[…] January 2, 2008 by amberfireinus Before you diss Islam, know your Christianity first… And quit generalizing, too. « Opinions are l… […]
4. ilegirl Says:
January 2, 2008 at 2:32 am
Thanks for this well-stated post. It’s good to know that there are others who are as troubled by misinformation and misinterpretation of Islam as I.
June 2, 2008 at 11:11 pm
I 100% agree with everything you said.
Did this come from your blog?
June 3, 2008 at 1:12 am
[...] Oh here’s a new comment from the thread I mentioned in the last post about Al Franken making a joke in an interview almost 10 years ago about internet porn, saying that [...]
June 3, 2008 at 1:31 am
i agree with both of your posts. very well written. read “letter to a christian nation” by sam harris. i’m his newest cheerleader. rah.
June 3, 2008 at 4:45 pm
Of course you agree with him Evan, but there are a couple of issues I will take up with his very thought-provoking comment:
There is much to be said about the Old Testament and the Quran. Like that the OT is historically bound to the Jewish people at a specific time and place, against a specific people or people groups. The Quran has no such designators. You can’t use the OT, logically at least, to justify stoning, murder, or geoncide because it’s historically bound in context, plain to historians, but if you’ve read the Quran, which I’m guessing you haven’t (because of your comment), you will find no such historical context. Besides, most extremists get their jusitfication from the Hadiths and other writings rather than the Quran, which is rather general and unspecific concerning violence towards pagans. Unfortunately, unlike how Christians treat post-Christ Christian authors, most Muslims consider Muhammed’s additional writings and other documents to be just as authoritative as the Quran. This creates some problems, as you can see.
As for Matthew 5:11-12, about followers of Christ being blessed for their persecution, a cursory reading of the entire new testament will show that this was considered to be the lot of Christian life, and in many places of the world is still the normal for Christians even in these days. This persecution was to be unmerited, undeserved, and not to be resisted in a faith-compromising or violent way. The difference between the Chrisian NT and the Quran on this matter is great. You have essentially compared apples and oranges here. Muslims are rewarded for dying for their faith, in a way that can be passive OR violent. If you are fighting violently for your faith, Islam, and die, there is great reward. But there is no such thing in the Christian NT. Violence is condemned, submission to authorities is seen as godly and good, the very authorities who were killing the Christians that Peter or Paul were writing to. Imagine that. There is no room for violence in Christianity. To compare what Jesus was talking about in Matthew 5:11-12 to the reward of violently defending your faith and converting others, is dishonest research/representation at best. Besides, comparing the literal physical reward promised in Islam to the ‘reward’ Jesus spoke of is also not a fair comparison. There’s no “extra good heaven” in the Christian faith, no “extra salvation”, none of that, but all are equal in Christ. I challenge all to learn what Jesus and his Apostles meant when speaking of a reward for persecution. I humbly submit that perhaps you should learn your Christianity a bit better, and it would suit you well to read the New Testament, and the Quran, before making wierd comparisons between the two.
I happen to agree with you about Christians not agreeing on many things, just like Muslims don’t agree on many things, and Christians and Muslims don’t agree with each other on many things. Christianity can’t hold itself up as uniform over Islam, or any religion. This is the inherent problem with religion anyways, as once Man gets his little grubby fingers on something beautiful, it suddenly becomes biased, opinionated, exclusionary, and self-righteous, to include earning our favor//salvation with God, which is essentially the most terrible fate I can imagine having to work through. Because we’re in the equation, we’re going to come up with all sorts of different ways to approach things. But in Christianity’s case, I think we need to look at what unifies all Christians, what the commonalities are, and what the Bible says. I would say you have to do the same thing with Islam and Muslims as well.
The bottom line I think, concerning Islam is that the ammount of people who are extremist for said faith are a small group compared to the whole. The same goes for Christianity, though at a much much much smaller ammount in these times. Just look at the ammount of violent actions of extremist christians compared to Islamic extremists, and you’ll see what I mean. It’s still extremism one way or another, it’s just Islam, for some reason, seems to have more of it (but not necessarily more or less total adherents than Christianity). I think the reason is found in what I first stated about historically bound statements from the Old Testament, and the vague admonitions to violence and conversion by sword found in the Quran, Hadiths, and other writings.
In a religion of 1 Billion souls, when an estimated 10-50 million of those ahderents are believing in a violent, extreme, and hateful version of that religion, you have to start to consider “where are they getting this from??”. And why don’t the Jews or Christians, or Hindus even have numbers or a ratio like that, despite having a comparable number of adherents?
Hope that’s just as thought-provoking.
r,
Joe
June 3, 2008 at 4:52 pm
well, i would add two things: Islam seems to have more violent adherents at this particular moment in history. however, the history of Christendom, and what has been the “norm” for many eras of Christianity, has been bloodier in a more widespread, consistent way than what we see with Islam today.
also, i would submit that ALL religious texts are limited within their historical context, just by virtue of what they are.
June 3, 2008 at 6:04 pm
Not so,
Many things said in the New Testament, especially of Jesus, are very much cross cultural and cross historical, and not necessarily only applicable for people living in the 1st century.
As for the crusades…
That wasn’t Christianity. And it was no less consistent than early Islam, which concentrated efforts produced an Islamic Empire that would rival any other world empire. The difference between the Catholic church’s crusade and Muhammed’s and his descendants is that the Catholics went to war based on the Pope’s authority, NOT anything from the New Testament. Not so with Islam. So…neener neener…apples and oranges.
June 3, 2008 at 6:08 pm
You see apples and oranges, I see competing religious systems justifying the atrocities they’ve committed.
Moderate Muslims would also argue that the actions of radicals are NOT Islam. It doesn’t really matter where they take their authority…they commit their atrocities in the NAMES of their religions.
As to the New Testament being cross-cultural, that requires a leap of faith. Muslims could argue the same thing.
They’re still old religious texts.
June 3, 2008 at 6:29 pm
I would think that the Quran is mostly cross cultural and historical too. 2+2 stays 2+2 over time regardless. “Do unto others…” is truth regardless of 2000 years old or not. Heck, the concept existed long before Jesus said it anyways. That’s what I’m talking about Evan.
If the Popes command years and years of war and murder in Christs name, with no command from the Bible (which is the source of authority for Christians), and the Muslims use Muhammeds writings (Quran et al), commands, and descendants’ writings to conquer the known world, how is this not a apples and oranges situation? We have to stay logical here man.
I don’t think anyone is trying to justify atrocities. And I also think most muslims would consider the actions of extremists as not muslim, but I PERSONALLY think that they’re not being consistent with their religious texts.
Joe
June 3, 2008 at 6:36 pm
except that Christianity as an institution is about much more than just the words of Jesus. yes, the texts are structured differently, but the “Christian Faith” also includes the sadistic God of the old testament and the very different picture of Christ included in the book of hallucination, i mean Revelation.
so, if we’re arguing Christ’s words against Muhammad’s words, then fine, but if we’re pitting one faith system against another, I’d say they’ve both easily used their scriptures, their teachings, and their leaders to justify abuse after egregious abuse.
June 3, 2008 at 6:43 pm
The people who think that God is sadistic don’t seem to get how bad man really is.
I agree with the rest of what you’ve said.
Joe
June 3, 2008 at 6:44 pm
Except for the “hallucination” part. Come on man…come on. Jesus isn’t different there, how is he? Evidence? Pretty consistent to me at least…from cover to cover even. A lot of Rev. is similar to the OT book of Daniel.
June 3, 2008 at 6:48 pm
Except that the books of Daniel and Revelation don’t really jibe with the Gospel Jesus.
And man has the capacity for good as much as bad…maybe that’s the true picture of God.
OR MAYBE that’s the true origin of the religious ideas of a battle vs good and evil. Maybe it’s just a way of explaining the nature of man, rather than anything about God or Satan.
June 3, 2008 at 6:58 pm
Dunno about THAT…
Jesus liked to quote Daniel’s prophecies about Himself very much (ie “The Son of Man”), which would make one think that Jesus was in agreement with the message found about Him in there. As for Revelation, I can’t see how it’s inconsistent in the least, so I’ll drop it.
I think man is sick and terrible, while being able to do much good as well. The problem comes in that no ammount of bribery (good things done for God) can make up for the fact that justice must be served. The murderer doesn’t get let off from the judge just because he washed the judge’s car prior to the trial. The Crime still has to be dealt with. With this in mind, Humans are pretty piss poor in our current state of affairs. God is being VERY merciful, me thinks.
Joe
June 3, 2008 at 7:09 pm
Except that man’s concept of justice (at least in most free-ish societies where the people actually have a voice) is becoming more evolved and humane, when looked at through the lens of recorded history, yet we still have these ideas about God’s version of justice, which is much more in line with the very unevolved ideas of 3000 years ago.
And I don’t look at doing good things for God or for humanity, just because it’s the right thing to do, as in any way being “bribery.”
Jesus seemed to say that when we do good things for humanity, we’re doing them for him. I would suppose that we could say that the flipside is true, as well, that when we do bad things against humanity, then we’re acting against him.
That’s not quite the same metric as salvation for those who pray a certain prayer and damnation for all others who don’t. That doesn’t seem like Jesus’s idea of “justice” at all.
June 3, 2008 at 7:14 pm
It’s not. Jesus idea of Justice is taking the blame for everything we’ve done ‘against Him’, as you said. And doing it in our place. And setting us and the world free, if we’d only trust in that. Which we don’t…
I don’t use man’s evolving justice system as a standard, so I can’t follow that argument. Just because we’re becoming more ‘civilized’ in our minds, does not mean we are, or that it’s ‘right’. I think God has the final say on what’s “justice”.
I think God’s version can be explained from the Bible as God is perfect, we’re not, God is Holy, we’re not, God is Good, we’re not. God can judge us for our sins, but Judged Himself in our stead.
Thanks Jesus.
That’s what I see The Bible expresses to us.
June 3, 2008 at 7:15 pm
And it’s not about a prayer, or what we can do, it’s about what God did. That’s fundamental to everything Jesus taught.
June 3, 2008 at 7:18 pm
But it seems that, when we reduce it to “he’s paid for it, but you have to accept it,” then it is reduced to “pray this prayer and get out of jail free.”
Either he reconciled humanity or he didn’t.
June 3, 2008 at 7:19 pm
And that interpretation DOES put it back in our hands, rather than God’s, unless you go with some Calvinistic interpretation that says God created most souls in order to punish them.
June 3, 2008 at 7:34 pm
I believe the debate between Calvinism and Arminianism to be a great mystery that God has knowledge of, but that we can’t comprehend any better than a 1D line can understand a 3D sphere.
As for what Christ did, and reconciliation…
John 12:31-33
“”Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.” He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die. ”
2 Corinthians 5:18-20
“All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.”
God reconciled the world to Himself with Christ, and Christians NEED to be ambassadors of that truth to this world which is hurting, evil, and needs hope.
I think that sums up how I see it best. I trust THAT with my very life and soul. What do you think?
June 3, 2008 at 7:51 pm
Sounds to me like the reconciliation is complete and doesn’t require something as arbitrary and fluid as the strength of our belief.
June 3, 2008 at 8:05 pm
I think this forum from CRN.info is fantastic. I think you should go over it, from maybe comment 100 on: http://christianresearchnetwork.info/2008/05/31/with-gentleness-and-respect/#comment-60894
June 3, 2008 at 8:06 pm
If reconciliation is complete, then why are we commended to go out as ambassadors to tell people?
June 3, 2008 at 8:06 pm
And why would Jesus bother coming and telling us to “repent and believe the Good News” about Him?
June 3, 2008 at 8:07 pm
It’s complete in the sense that the work is finished, but incomplete in that not everyone is reconciled when they very well COULD be. It’s so great that I want everyone to be a part of it, and it breaks my heart to see some reject it outright. Sorry for the comment whoring.
June 3, 2008 at 8:11 pm
Maybe the “good news” is less about converting people than about letting people know what’s already been done, and that they’re a part of it.
That’s much more “good news” than “repent or hell!” anyway.
June 3, 2008 at 8:13 pm
Maybe the “good news” is “Would you stop torturing yourself about the next life? I’ve got that. Now go experience the fullness of THIS life.”
June 3, 2008 at 8:22 pm
Very insightful Evan.
I don’t think Jesus is about converting people, but about telling people. Afterall, this is what Jesus and His Apostles after Him went around doing. Though repentance is a huge part of the Gospel, I challenge you to investigate how that fits in. What is there ‘good news’ about? Not what we think, but what did Jesus specifically say it was about? You have to be open to the fact that Jesus was very specific about it.
This was a good conversation Evan.
June 3, 2008 at 8:35 pm
I’m reading the thread right now…
It just seems like, if God requires MY “repentance” in order to “save” me, then was Jesus really victorious over death in the first place?
If even one soul created by God goes to hell, again, was Jesus actually victorious over death or hell?
It seems that even the “repentance” part might fit in more with the idea of experiencing the fullness of THIS life. People who have never heard the word “Jesus,” as well as those who have, yet were raised as Muslims, or Hindus, or whatever else, and see no overarching reason to abandon their heritage, still “repent.” Most people have the capacity for becoming conscious of the wrong they do to themselves and others, and by extension to God…maybe the point is, again, about the fullness of THIS life. People always talk about finding new life in Christ, yet immediately tie that to going to heaven instead of hell. Maybe the whole point is that Jesus is saying “You’re not perfect, so you’re going to screw up when you do, so repent of it, to man and to God, but the good news is that you needn’t be burdened by your imperfection, just keep going out and trying to do better on your end, and I’ve got the rest taken care of on my end.”
June 3, 2008 at 9:07 pm
Evan,
I admit I don’t have all the answers, not even many of them, I just know what I have read and what God has shown me, beyond that all we can do is talk in circles like this. I encourage reading the New Testament again with an open mind to see what Jesus’ message really was.
r,
Joe