Not that there weren’t a couple stretches in the Side A argument, but as a whole, the Side B argument…eh…I tend to be looking out for clues that an argument is made from a place of some sort of self-loathing. I see that a bit in their Side B argument.

Wat 2 do what tew do?

They have an interesting thing going on over there.

I try to do that in ALL areas of my life.

Speaking of the Bible, though, if you haven’t been there yet, you ought to read the arguments about homosexuality at Sisterfriends-together & Soulforce (links on the right sidebar) as well as at Gaychristian.net.

The arguments that the “traditional” exegesis is flawed are actually QUITE compelling.

I’m not SURE God created humans or animals with the intent of being gay, initially. It seems very clear from Genesis that the natural order for most higher animals was to be male/female, at least for reproduction, but I don’t think you’re arguing that. With that said, I wouldn’t say it’s beyond reasonable that things didn’t pan out that way in terms of relationships, and that naturally gayness happens. That’s all I’ll say on that.

The thing you have to understand about the guys at .info is that we’re all very diverse, but one thing that seems to bring unity to the regulars there, including myself, is understanding in our differences, yours included. I’d say most of them believe homosexuality to be a sin, but they’re not going to treat you like many of the fundies treat gays. I’m sure you’ve seen that. They are coming from the traditional exegesis of Scripture, and some of them smartly couple that with what’s seen in nature. The traditional viewpoint (it’s a sin, no different than any other, and sexuality is to be between a man and woman) is a hard one to argue against from the Bible and even from natural order, but I have seen good arguments against it. To be completely honest with you Evan, I’m still not sure, after years as a Christian, where I stand on the ‘issue’ of homosexuality as a sin or not. I feel like I’m in limbo, trying to pray, study, and get as much experience and info as I can about it. Many would condemn harshly me for being on the fence, trying to reach out, and not shy away from having gay friends in my life. I’m being honest here because I believe a man is only as good as his word, and I believe I’ve gained your trust enough not to betray it by hiding my thoughts.

One thing I know though is that the majority of Christian treatment of gays and many other groups of people is abhorrent and not godly at all.

I don’t think all anti gay religious arguments fundamentally rely on a denial of available science. I think, at least in Christianity, it starts with the Bible, and shreds out from there. The science can easily swing both ways (no pun intended) on this I feel. You can make it fit whatever worldview really.

Bottom line, I’m willing to be wrong. God will always be right, but I don’t know all his thoughts and all his intents. I have to stay open. Jesus doesn’t stop loving me just because I’m trying to figure out where I stand on such a secondary issue to my faith. I hope you get what I’m saying all in all.

My Celtics are about to win the Finals, and have completely embarassed the Lakers, beating them by like 40 pts with 3 min left in the 4th. w00t.

Joe

(ta-da!)

The mere fact that teh gay has been observed in over 1,500 species, across all genus/species/whatever else points to the idea that, for whatever reason, homosexuality is just part of creation.

So yeah, it’s really weird to me. Perhaps this is where a lot of my frustration with religious conservatives vs. science comes from…especially with the anti-gay movement, there’s such a naked disregard for whatever science tells us…and it’s gotten to the point where ALL anti-gay religious arguments actually fundamentally rely on a denial of available science. That’s part of the reason I can’t discuss it quite so plainly at crn.info. There is a certain contingent there that will bathe themselves in their interpretation of scripture, and I’m over here going “okay, well i’m over here in reality, if you decide to come visit.”

They’ll say (and I’ve heard it said), well because of the Fall of Man and Creation (not necessarily a BAD premise to start with…but watch where it goes), you would expect gayness because it’s a fallen state and a consequence of the fall and all sorts of gene variations happen b/c of that. And it’ll be explained that way.

Either it’s a sin or not, don’t do mental gymnastics people.